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mada88
19-10-09, 04:35 PM
Hi,
Has anyone fitted an LSD to there 182? or any other type of diff. Would it be worth fitting an LSD to a 182? Imagine an LSD on a trophy! putting its power down! 8)

duffer987
19-10-09, 04:45 PM
Personally I think putting a slippy dif on a small hatch like the Clio goes against the "old school" thrashy hot hatch thing that the Trophy does so well. That said there are a number of threads on ClioSport where folks have fit the to 172/182s.

Stevie
19-10-09, 04:46 PM
To a standard 182 no as it doesn't need one only highly modified I would imagine you would.

mada88
19-10-09, 05:18 PM
Highly modded like remap, new exhaust air filter etc?

Stevie
19-10-09, 05:23 PM
I was thinking 200bhp + etc.

mada88
19-10-09, 05:42 PM
I was thinking 200bhp + etc.

wouldn't you get above 200bhp with a remap, new exhaust new air filters? :s

stealthsport.co.uk
19-10-09, 05:58 PM
I was thinking 200bhp + etc.

wouldn't you get above 200bhp with a remap, new exhaust new air filters? :s

Nope

The cars usually make roughly 165bhp as standard so you might get 10+ bhp with those mods in reality

:)

mada88
19-10-09, 08:02 PM
I was thinking 200bhp + etc.

wouldn't you get above 200bhp with a remap, new exhaust new air filters? :s

Nope

The cars usually make roughly 165bhp as standard so you might get 10+ bhp with those mods in reality

:)

So all the so called quoted "gains" of 10bhp etc are just lies lies lies? #-o

PB.283
19-10-09, 09:43 PM
Never felt the need for an LSD on a 172/182 and especially not on a Trophy with the front end grip it has.

For reference my 172 cup had a good IK, cams, sports cat and s/s exhaust and made 189bhp

480bhp.com
20-10-09, 09:13 AM
For road driving you'll gain very little benefit of fitting an lsd, but for track use, the Clio in general needs one pretty bad :(

Johnnytheboy
20-10-09, 09:58 AM
My bro works at Quaife, and they make one of their ATB diffs for the Clio (same principle as the Focus RS diff).

vamos
20-10-09, 01:54 PM
IMO every front driver is transformed by LSD, even the helical type as per Quaiffe, and even for road use.

On the other hand, the trophy is quite well resolved to work without one, and it is not cost effective to fit one. I have been quoted cca 1200 pounds for the fitting alone. The gearbox has to come out I have been told.

OTOH if I ever need my gearbox reconditioned (or replaced) then it will definitely be going back with a LSD. Possibly the Gripper clutch type, if someone does not start to produce a cheaper one.

I agree with 480bhp, for track work LSD will transform the trophy.

Luke335
20-10-09, 02:20 PM
I'd love to try one - even on the road. This is an expensive experiment though!

PB.283
20-10-09, 03:35 PM
I have heard mixed reports on LSDs

Its big bucks for not much gain to start with but

I think an R26 is only about 2 secs quicker on an average track than a 225 F1

A mate who went from a 225 Cup to an R26 complained that sometimes the diff made the car pull to one side on dodgy camber and infact he prefered the 225 Cup.

Cue
21-10-09, 10:00 AM
that's why reno designed the revo-knuckle (or was that ford) suspension to compliment the diff....

personally unless you're competing it's a waste of money - timing laps is pretty pointless on track days as it's about enjoyment not outright pace.

hoolio
21-10-09, 10:03 AM
Think that was Reno and Ford copied.

Cue
21-10-09, 03:16 PM
aye - i couldn't remember who knicked it off who...

SharkyUK
28-10-09, 02:29 PM
I'm thinking of getting an LSD fitted to the T next year (hopefully). I think it would benefit significantly to be honest (although I'm not measuring significance in terms of tenths of seconds off lap times). I dare say it would be a waste of time and money if the car doesn't see much track/B-road 'spirited' action though.

j333evo
28-10-09, 07:50 PM
LSD can totally make a car, especially a FWD car. Our FTO has a Torsen LSD (like Quaife) and it totally makes the car, you can get the power down so early out of bends, and on track at Silverstone it was brilliant. Another good side effect was the car was excellent in last years snow as you could feel the diff really working hard to get best traction, you would never have believed it was FWD car the way it easily dealt with the lower levels of grip, our neighbours RWD Auto Merc never moved in nearly a week.

There is a reason why the Honda Integra Type R DC2 is so highly revered and a lot of it are down to its Torsen LSD.

The Championship Edition Civic Type R with Torsen LSD is so much better than the standard Civic Type R, 3 secs around Bedford Autodrome better, and on road really made a difference when I test drove them.

We have fitted a Quaife LSD to our Cinquecento track day car and it only has 120bhp.

Plate diff diffs as used to be fitted to Mini's can be very snatchy, but Gripper Diffs seem to have made them much more usable on road cars. But in general they are the best for drag strips.

Viscous diffs, as fitted to Fiat Coupe Turbo's and Subaru Impreza's are a bit lazy and really need a big difference in wheel speed before working.

Having done about 30laps of Castle Combe in a friends Clio 172, a LSD would transform it, being able to get power down sooner and not wasting it away by spinning up the inside wheel.

Fitting a diff is not as difficult as you think if you have reasonable spanner skills and often can be done without removing the gearbox, dependent on access. Alfa Romeo sell what they call there Q2 diff, again Torsen, and again makes a massive difference to there cars, from the 1.9JTD's but really work well on the 3.2 V6's and Alfa sell it at less than £300, most folk only charge £450 to supply and fit as can be done without removing gearbox, should really have been done as standard on the V6 147/156 GTA's though may have not got reputation as an animal. I don't know Clio's yet, so can't comment on access.

As an aside, the Ford Revo-knuckle suspension is similar to what Renault used on hot Megane and I think Clio 197/200, but then if you go back to 1994 Toyota fitted to all GT4 ST205s to production end in 1999 and JDM FWD Celica ST202 and later ZZ model there "SuperStrut" suspension which does same thing, Macpherson strut front suspension but strut is fixed in place and steering is done with other components meaning less camber change of wheels as they turn, sure many of you have read how it works.

Sam_K
28-10-09, 08:40 PM
^^^ you have convinced me, i want one!! :D

George K
28-10-09, 08:44 PM
Big question is exactly what do Renault fit to the Megane R26 etc? I am led to believe that it comes out of the Nissan parts bin and that it may be made by a Japanese associate of GKN?

Also working in the transmission industry we know that the snatchiness of a plate diff is largely due detailed design and quality of components. The biggest problem is that making the right quality of components so that the locking action does not degrade quickly is very expensive.

The general issue with gear type diffs is that if one wheel is totally unloaded they do not lock very well. There are tricks to reduce this short-coming. Certainly my DC5 suffers this way.

Gib#244
28-10-09, 09:42 PM
My mate used to have LSD on his 182 turbo - The first handfull of 182's to start the turbo 'trend' :lol: was a few years ago now mind! was running around the 330bhp but ran all day long at 260bhp, before he sold it he fitted the LSD and it was a HUGE improvement could put the power down and stopped the skipping when booting it. was truely and awesome motor.

Few pics of his car

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p231/Gib172/S1030658.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p231/Gib172/S1030655.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p231/Gib172/S1030653.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p231/Gib172/S1030650.jpg

Photobucket as cut half of the pics off! :(

j333evo
28-10-09, 11:27 PM
Big question is exactly what do Renault fit to the Megane R26 etc? I am led to believe that it comes out of the Nissan parts bin and that it may be made by a Japanese associate of GKN?

Also working in the transmission industry we know that the snatchiness of a plate diff is largely due detailed design and quality of components. The biggest problem is that making the right quality of components so that the locking action does not degrade quickly is very expensive.

The general issue with gear type diffs is that if one wheel is totally unloaded they do not lock very well. There are tricks to reduce this short-coming. Certainly my DC5 suffers this way.

You are pretty much spot on with where the diff came from, here's what if found:

GKN Driveline`s unique torque-sensing Helical limited slip differential
(LSD) has been chosen by Renault for the "Cup" version of it`s latest and most
powerful Mégane Renault Sport unveiled at this year`s Frankfurt Motor Show.

Succeeding the much praised Mégane F1 Team R26 and Mégane R26.R, the entirely
new Mégane Renault Sport features a 250hp (340 Nm), 2-litre 16-valve
turbocharged engine driving the front wheels.

In order to increase the sporty character of the new car`s "Cup" version and to
improve its dynamic performance especially for circuit driving, Renault
engineers asked GKN Driveline to develop their helical high-performance LSD as
standard equipment. GKN Driveline has been supplying similar units to Japanese
manufacturers since 1995, but fitment on the Mégane F1 Team-R26 in 2006 was the
first application by a European manufacturer.

The compact Helical LSD is fitted inside the transmission of the front-wheel
drive Mégane R. S. Cup significantly enhancing the drive delivery and general
dynamic performance of the car. The robust unit is a mechanical, torque-sensing
LSD, comprised of a knurled helical gear set inside a durable differential
housing. It operates on the basis of gear separation forces generating friction
between internal components and a resulting torque bias that resists
differentiation. Consistent performance, low backlash and compatibility with ABS
and ESP systems are key features of this GKN Driveline product.

Rob Rickell, global engineering director for GKN Driveline said, "Drivetrain
developments have lead to ever increasing power and torque outputs which have,
especially in the case of FWD cars, created big challenges. For Renault, we were
able to find an existing product that with relatively minimal engineering, was
ideally suited to their new performance Mégane R. S. Cup."

The Mégane R. S. Cup will be available later this year in Germany, France, the
UK, Italy and Spain.

Another LSD that is worth reading about, although no products available for the Clio unless its very similar to a 5GTT is Phantom Grip as its very cheap compared to others and have had some great feedback from a 500+bhp FTO owner who has only replaced due to going to 600+bhp for Ten Of the Best and has now gone much more expensive Quaife like his competitors. http://www.phantomgrip.com/

George K
29-10-09, 09:50 AM
j333evo

The other point about plate diffs is that it is quite easy to have different characteristics power on and off, also by playing with pre-load to change the rate at which the locking effect builds up.

Another supplier is Drexler in Germany.

j333evo
29-10-09, 12:38 PM
j333evo

The other point about plate diffs is that it is quite easy to have different characteristics power on and off, also by playing with pre-load to change the rate at which the locking effect builds up.

Another supplier is Drexler in Germany.

This is true, I've never used one, but the g/f's Dad when he worked for Nissan Europe WRC used to fit different diffs dependent on stages/surfaces etc, still has some of the plates kicking about from them and said he could set up pretty much any type of diff characteristic you liked on them, but all this ramp angles and backlash are above my knowledge and experience TBH. He is very impressed with the custom made Quaife ATB LSD we got made for our Cinquecento, its so small, but beautifully engineered.

As an aside was speaking to a guy who runs a FTO in Ten of the Best and all he used when running upto 500bhp was the Phantom Grip LSD and he really rated it, said it was great especially when he ran low power, upto 350bhp, but as he now runs 600+bhp he has changed to Quaife like his competitors do. I'm sure most know about Ten of the Best, but its also includes handling as well as 1/4 mile and top speed, so a well sorted all round diff is essential. Really tempted to try one in our Seicento as its only $299, so once shipped and tax when its gets here about £300 which is less than half Quaife.

Aaron.

Luke335
29-10-09, 01:10 PM
I'm thinking of getting an LSD fitted to the T next year (hopefully). I think it would benefit significantly to be honest (although I'm not measuring significance in terms of tenths of seconds off lap times). I dare say it would be a waste of time and money if the car doesn't see much track/B-road 'spirited' action though.


SharkyUK, I remember you guys fitted a diff to the Civic. How are you guys finding it day to day. Any adverse effects? At this time of year I often think it would complete the Trophy.

salem
29-10-09, 09:53 PM
I'm thinking of getting an LSD fitted to the T next year (hopefully). I think it would benefit significantly to be honest (although I'm not measuring significance in terms of tenths of seconds off lap times). I dare say it would be a waste of time and money if the car doesn't see much track/B-road 'spirited' action though.


SharkyUK, I remember you guys fitted a diff to the Civic. How are you guys finding it day to day. Any adverse effects? At this time of year I often think it would complete the Trophy.

I have been watching and reading this thread with interest, makes for very good reading and very interesting on some peoples views on this.

I'm owner of the CTR which we put a Spoon LSD on back in March just before we did the Isle of Man tour.. Now I will admit to anyone and I've always said that I preferred driving Sharky's Trophy over my CTR and those that go out driving with us will confirm I was pretty much always driving Sharky's Trophys on meets however since putting the LSD on the CTR I have hardly driven Sharky's Trophy and now much prefer driving my CTR (sorry Trophy fans, but good news for Sharky as he gets his car back lol) thats how good the LSD is. I wasnt fussed on my CTR if I'm honest but now I love it..

It really has transformed the car that much. The car is only a weekend car so its not used around the town and I would say if you us your car around the town everyday driving then dont get an LSD as it can be a little snatchy if you are not careful. However if you use your car for the track or a good blast on country roads you will love it as it handles sooo much better... in the wet again took it out for a blast to see how she handles and I was just amazed on how well she handled she just keeps turning in. However I'm no expect I'm no race driver but even I can tell the car handles much better... but thats on the CTR and who cares about that this is a Trophy form :wink:

I would be very interested to speak to someone who has had an LSD fitting to a Clio 182 to see what they think about it.

I've driven both the CTR and Trophy back to back many times on the road and track so I do know the difference and yes the Trophy doesnt need an LSD like the CTR does (IMO) but if it makes that much difference to the handling of the CTR then I would have thought it would make a big difference on the Trophy too ? Which is why we are thinking about it..

Besides SharkyUK's getting jealous because the CTR whips his ass on the twistys :lol: <runs and hides now lol >

Luke335
30-10-09, 04:21 PM
Thats a good review, thanks. My Trophy is very much an everyday car at the moment so I wouldn't want anything too snatchy. I guess I would prefer not to have a plate style diff. I know the Trophy is fantastic already but I don't like waiting until the wheels are straight before I can get on the power. Rear wheel drive next I think!

Like you said, it would be really useful to speak to someone with one fitted to a 182.