PDA

View Full Version : Renault Clio 182 or Seat Ibiza Cupra TDI?



mada88
03-10-09, 09:49 PM
Which one would I be best off buying? I don't do many miles as I work away so I drive mainly at weekends. So it got me thinking a diesel might probably cost more than a petrol. But the diesel cupra has sooooo much torque! But I have heard they can torque steer out of corners! Which could be a problem lol. A clio would be cheaper and I'm sure more fun to drive with the handling. I hardly do any motor driving so I probably wouldn't be using the diesel to its full potenial. Any advice would be very helpful!

StevieH
03-10-09, 11:05 PM
I had a remapped 130 tdi (to 183bhp)Ibiza, with s3 brakes, eibach suspension, 17" oz gt alloys and it used to humiliate 172 clios in a straight line, however in the bends it was nothing special and the wet it was the most horrible car in the world to drive.

A 182 clio will be much more fun/rewarding to drive.

On the flip side th ibiza imo looks alot nicer and the build quality is leagues ahead of the renault, it wil also be considerably better on juice than a clio,(i drove mine like a bell end everywhere and still averaged 44mpg!!! on a run 60+ was easily acievable.)

It really is down to what suits your life style, however asking this on a clio forum will undoubtedly lead to a biased response.

If you thrive on high revs and razor sharp handling then get a clio, however if you enjoy cruising around (economically) knowing you have 160bhp (200 if remapped) and an abundance of torque to humble much quicker cars then get the Ibiza.

If there was an Ibiza that handled as good as a Trophy when I was changing cars I would of bpought the SEAT.

Just drive both and then only you can decide.

Hope this helps

Steve

mada88
04-10-09, 12:10 PM
Thanks for the help steve! The torque in the ibiza is tempting but the torque steer isn't lol. I've heard that the larger turbo in the cupra does lag alot so driving around town stop/start would be terribly slow. About the clio people have said about the heavy clutch being annoying around town. But personally I don't think I'd mind a heavy clutch as I am a bit heavy footed. I'm sure the clio would be quicker around town and more punchy off the line.

mada88
04-10-09, 04:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjiFWG5c ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjiFWG5c-Vo&feature=related) god it sounds like a tractor! lmao!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW6fkwsQ ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW6fkwsQwlo&feature=related) sounds better!

StevieH
04-10-09, 06:16 PM
One thing I forgot to add was that I'd sheared the flywheel bolts due to the amount of torque it produced when mapped, also the clutches are really weak and will slip if used in anger.

Steve

Cue
05-10-09, 02:42 PM
personally if it was a choice between the two the 182 would win everytime for me.... i've a leon and the T and there's no way i'd let go of the T before the leon.... no where near as much fun. ps that's the 2.0 TDI (although not the cupra)

mada88
07-10-09, 09:34 PM
Evo seems to rate the cupra as the best small turbo diesel. Much higher than the skoda fabia vrs lol was thinking about one of them but the image and interior yuk! Only thing is evo reviewed the cupra tdi in spain on a nice hot day with smooth spanish hilly roads. Though I did read they recommended it to a driving instructor to replace his fabia vrs with!
The thing is though I don't think the running costs would be cheaper because the cupras are quite expensive for a decent low mileage one. Where as the clio 182 are quite resonalbly priced compared. And a car fast from a stand still would be sweet round town. I duno lol the trophy looks tempting but im unsure what with the costs with the dampers etc.

Matt X2C
08-10-09, 10:22 AM
I like funny threads....

I think you have slightly overestimated the torque (curve) of a diesel though.

StevieH
08-10-09, 11:53 AM
I don't think he's over estimating it at all, at the end of the day a TDI with 310lb/ft of torque is quite substantial compared to a stock 182 with around about 140lb/ft.

The best way to make progress in a diesel is to not over rev it, change gears at 4k and you'll maximise the torque available aswell as keeping those pesky 182's in check.

However, as previously mentioned, the chassis isn't as good as a clios.

If your a straight line specialist doing a lot of commuting miles the it's a TDI all the way.

If you preffer going round corners on three wheels get a clio.

allman45
20-10-09, 09:26 PM
i was in the same boat as you before i got my "T", no regrets, theres a few ibizas and fabias round mine mapped up and stuff running silly torque and horses alike, they are fast i do admit but not as fast as what most people make out to be! they feel ridiculously fast onbaord only because of the torque, my mate has one and when its boosting it feels like your doing twice the speed you are, his is running 186hp and 300 ft lb torque (pd 130), it keeps up with mine in a straight line very well, i can only may be pull 3-4 car lenghts on it over say 400m, but in the corners its no competition, mine absolutley rapes it, stock they handle like ice cream vans. Trophy every time mate! more powerful cars will beat you on the straights but the T will beat the majority of things in the corners, at the end of the day how many roads are all straight until the end? (- motorways). T is excllent on the b roads and roundabouts. However if i was to lose the T a cupra would be a major consideration of mine!

Renaultsport
20-10-09, 10:04 PM
I've you want a drivers car then I would suggest the 182. Reason for this is: yes the Ibiza is nice to drive, has more of a lazy approach as the torque pulls it out of any gear, but handling wise they aren't that good. They like to understeer, a lot.

I used to work for SEAT a few years back, and I loved to drive them, but compared to the 182 I would choose the 182 every time. I used to own a 172 Cup, then a Leon Cupra R 225 but then bought the Trophy as its so addictive to drive.

Ibiza compared to 182, they both have their pros and cons but I think the 182 has more pros then anything.

Comes down to what you want from a car.

pete g
21-10-09, 12:44 AM
Please, are you really comparing a CT with a Seat oil burner?
My mates got one, we call it the Spanish Tractor... Torque does not make a drivers car, not by a long way!

Matt X2C
21-10-09, 09:20 AM
I don't think he's over estimating it at all, at the end of the day a TDI with 310lb/ft of torque is quite substantial compared to a stock 182 with around about 140lb/ft.

The best way to make progress in a diesel is to not over rev it, change gears at 4k and you'll maximise the torque available aswell as keeping those pesky 182's in check.

However, as previously mentioned, the chassis isn't as good as a clios.

If your a straight line specialist doing a lot of commuting miles the it's a TDI all the way.

If you preffer going round corners on three wheels get a clio.

I do. Diesels have a peak torque figure and that is it, the torque curves are shocking. You can't compare 300lb/ft of torque on a petrol and 300 lb/ft on a diesel for example as the diesel only has its peak torque for about 200rpm rather than a flat torque curve.

I can't believe the 2 cars are being compared.

Cue
21-10-09, 10:28 AM
personal experience in this argument - my leon isn't anywhere near as fast as the T. My mates chipped bmw 400 lb/ft 3 series coupe is there or there abouts but again that's in a straight line.

duffer987
21-10-09, 11:27 AM
personal experience in this argument - my leon isn't anywhere near as fast as the T. My mates chipped bmw 400 lb/ft 3 series coupe is there or there abouts but again that's in a straight line.

Ha, that reminds me of the remapped 335D legend and forever more punchline on PH :lol:

Cue
21-10-09, 03:14 PM
it's only around 160-200bhp though, just imense torque....

mada88
21-10-09, 06:34 PM
The 335D is a beast! Remapped it would be insane! It would be a right laugh on the motorway. But nothing special round the corners lol it does 60 is 6secs standard imagine remapped! Sorry this is the wrong place to bum bm's :D
I was wanting to compare the T and the "spanish tractor" to find out which would be best at showing up other cars like vxr corsas etc.

Renaultsport
21-10-09, 06:49 PM
If you want to race stuff (each to their own) then Corsa VXR drivers would laugh at you in their rear view mirror if you were driving the SEAT with a cloud of black diesel smoke being you.

As said, you can't really compare the 182 and Ibiza TDi. Two different cars, the Ibiza would however be good to tow a caravan :D

mada88
21-10-09, 11:42 PM
:shock: and shhhhh can't mention racing! esp on car forums u know wot there like with forum rules etc ;) lol And theres nout wrong with caravans! [-X lol I doubt a vxr corsa would do a remapped cupra tdi (in spanish trophy! i know! lol no match though for the reno T's trophy crown) 400nm against 230? oh sorry i mean 260 with the brief over boost of torque.
Is the trophy a VXR Corsa eater? the reason i mentioned the vxr corsa is that a mate got one and i wanna show him up :p childish i know but anyways...........lol

pete g
22-10-09, 05:26 PM
Its all fairly meaningless...
If you have a high Torque diesel its easy to go quickish in straight line, just nail the throttle.
If you have a Honda or to a lesser extent Cliosport you have to work at it and use the gearbox.

The only true test (legal as well) of driver/car is on the track, sign up for a trackday or sprint and try it..

There is a well known saying in racing... When the flag drops the Bullsh*t stops ;-)

mada88
25-10-09, 08:16 PM
I dout a vxr corsa owner would be laughing against a re-mapped/modded cupra tdi. If your racing on the street how would a car like a 182 be any good against high torque cars? Please explain/give examples of your heroics someone cheers.

Renaultsport
25-10-09, 09:27 PM
the easiest thing to do is drive a TDi to see what they drive like.

Matt X2C
26-10-09, 09:35 AM
I dout a vxr corsa owner would be laughing against a re-mapped/modded cupra tdi. If your racing on the street how would a car like a 182 be any good against high torque cars? Please explain/give examples of your heroics someone cheers.

You still don't seem to be understanding, diesels have that high torque, very briefly...it means very little. All it means in a diesel is you would have 'more chance' of winning against a Trophy if you caught the owner unaware and it was in the bottom of the rev-range and out of the power band in the wrong gear. If you organized that you would be running from 30 or 40mph in second gear up through the gears then you would get left in the TDi.

Johnnytheboy
26-10-09, 03:50 PM
personal experience in this argument - my leon isn't anywhere near as fast as the T. My mates chipped bmw 400 lb/ft 3 series coupe is there or there abouts but again that's in a straight line.

Ha, that reminds me of the remapped 335D legend and forever more punchline on PH :lol:

I've heard this referred to, I wish I could read the original but PH's search function is hopeless.

I get the idea that someone had a remapped 335D which they believed was faster than any other car ever.

Matt X2C
27-10-09, 09:22 AM
personal experience in this argument - my leon isn't anywhere near as fast as the T. My mates chipped bmw 400 lb/ft 3 series coupe is there or there abouts but again that's in a straight line.

Ha, that reminds me of the remapped 335D legend and forever more punchline on PH :lol:

I've heard this referred to, I wish I could read the original but PH's search function is hopeless.

I get the idea that someone had a remapped 335D which they believed was faster than any other car ever.

The amount that gets mentioned on PH, I wondered to what originated the ongoing joke.

mada88
09-12-09, 10:25 PM
A bm is better than a Renault so I wouldn't laugh at his car.

marrow
09-12-09, 11:01 PM
Really can't wait for the next update.... :^o

mada88
10-12-09, 12:33 AM
I like funny threads....

I think you have slightly overestimated the torque (curve) of a diesel though.

Not really lesser diesels would out pace your trophy I'm sure it happens all the time while you sit I'm the loser lane on the motorway trying to get 40mpg. My cup has race dampers! But they call it a trophy instead!

mada88
10-12-09, 12:48 AM
Please, are you really comparing a CT with a Seat oil burner?
My mates got one, we call it the Spanish Tractor... Torque does not make a drivers car, not by a long way!

well why not? Your trophy isn't all that you know f ucks sake you should re-name this forum the church of trophy the way some of you people worship a little red French tin can on wheels. If it wasn't for people asking different questions and bringing up new things this forum would just go around in circles talking about the same subjects. On the face of it this seems to be the case. Funny? You are the way your deluded mind thinks a trophies the best car ever.

hoolio
10-12-09, 12:52 AM
It is a trophy site by the way.

hoolio
10-12-09, 01:23 AM
I don't think many of us are under the illusion the the T is the best car ever but for the kind of money you can pick one up you will not get much that offers let alone beats the T at what its best at, it wasn't one of Evo's cars of the year for nothing. It seems that you have not even driven one yet so to a certain extent how can you express an opinion about how it may perform against oil burner.
You had one negative comment at the end of a very long thread and threw all the toys, grow up.

pete g
10-12-09, 01:30 AM
Spot on hoolio.... You asked for advice mada, then you moan and swear when you dont like it... #-o
I do know more than the fine little redbox, Cossy, STI, Lotus for starters...
There are better cars but a Seat oil burner aint one of them .. got it.

mada88
10-12-09, 01:35 AM
Diesel hybrids are the future

hoolio
10-12-09, 01:37 AM
Have you been on the sauce, you do realise its a school night.

mada88
10-12-09, 01:43 AM
I want bother you people again.

marrow
10-12-09, 09:03 AM
I want bother you people again.

=D>

Cue
10-12-09, 10:41 AM
i turn my back for a day and WW3 erupts...

Mada, I have a Leon TDI as well as the T and it just doesn't compare. I've had all sorts of cars before and they don't compare, not the the M3 I had was slower, but it terms of driving pleasure I wouldn't go back. Not least because the running costs of the T is around half of that of the M3, but it offers up more fun - go figure why I didn't buy another one in favour of saving 20k and getting a T?????

If you've driven a range of cars, have built up a wealth of driving knowledge, you'd laugh at the comparison between an ibiza and a T. OK, they're similar sized... that's about where the comparison ends.

mada88
10-12-09, 11:06 AM
You might aswell delete this thread it was a stupid question anyway. I don't know why the trophy was brought into the equation as the title doesn't say trophy It was comparing the standard 182. Anyways people like I said it's still a stupid comparison.

hoolio
10-12-09, 11:11 AM
It wasn't a stupid question and as you said in one of the posts that you deleted it's an open forum for people to discuss stuff that interests us all, cars. Unfortunately we're not always going to like what we hear all the time.

George K
10-12-09, 12:17 PM
I actually looked at one for hill climbing as, in the SW, 2.0 litre diesel turbos run in the up to 1,400 cc class. There was a Cupra 160 bhp competing a couple of years ago and he was only about 1.5 seconds slower than the Trophy and other 182s. Even in standard form he had big problems with heat soak making the whole system shut down.

They are by far the lightest disel with any performance, and there are reasonable handling kits. Tuning is far more complicated than generally admitted - any significant power increase needs a stronger clutch, which generally means converting from a dual mass flywheel to solid and then any refinement disappears. A better intercooler is a must, as is a different turbo; however the intercooler doesn't solve heat soak and the turbo changes the shape of the torque curve quite significantly. Remember that maximum torque in itself is not the holy grail, as the longer gearing of a diesel reduces the multiplication seen at the wheels when compared with a high revving petrol engine. Also if you look at the torque curves for many modified diesels, they are quite spikey (makes them feel quicker than they are, as does the late V Tec switch over on a Honda) - as ever it is the area under the curve that matters. Last but not least the gearing was not at all suitable. so quite simply a no-no.

A 182 is far more competitive out of the box, and driven gently will do 36 mpg plus - it would take years to recover the cost of making the Seat a match. As an unmodifid car for general slightly sporty every day use it is good, but fulfills a different requirements from the Clios.

mada88
10-12-09, 01:46 PM
The only car you could really compare the trophy with is the integra type
r. As the the standard 182 there are lots of cars
to compare it with, except the cupra TDI. You live
you learn.

George K
10-12-09, 04:57 PM
Mada 88 - Which is why I went from the T to a DC5. In standard form the Trophy is a superior car, however after a season's hill climbing I would say that the DC5 has more development potential.

Cupra200
20-12-09, 11:48 PM
Stumbled across this thread and had to add my bit.....

I agree it's not really a viable comparison, especially if your thinking in 'pure' hot hatch terms.

I run a Cupra TDI set up for fast road and track, 202bhp 300ft/lb (Revo), Sachs clutch, uprated and lowered suspension professionally set up, exhaust etc.... (enthusiastic day to day road driving returns average 40mpg or mid to low 20s on the track).

Fast yes, good chassis no. It doesn't matter what you do to the Cupra it'll never handle even close to a 182 let alone the trophy. Whilst a light car overall, the diesel lump up front is heavy making it impossible to totally dial out even with trick suspension. My car is probably as alive at the rear as it is possible to get without stripping out interior and trying to lose weight up front but it still doesn't come close to a 182 especially in Cup or trophy guise.

I genuinely did choose between the Clio 182 cup, Cupra TDI and Cooper S, and drove all three. For me and my day to day driving the Cupra was the best all-rounder. The power does bring a smile to your face and point to point (on the road) the car is very quick if driven smoothly, but the handling doesn't raise a smile. It's safe a predictable but never alive or rewarding.

If I didn't drive a fair few miles and fuel cost (with enthusiastic driving) wasn't an issue, I'd have a Trophy over my Cupra instantly. Especially when it comes to doing track days. As it is, it's a 'sensible' hot hatch, a bit better bolted together than a Clio, but not even close in terms of chassis capability.

The amount of bull***t about which is faster, what people have had out of their cars, what they've 'beaten' is laughable. My car IS rolling road tested (okay I'll admit they're hardly an exact science). Does it torque steer, YES. Is it prone to understeer, YES. Is it terrible in the wet, NO - thats s**t tires and similar driving. Does it have loads of lag, NO - Revo largely takes care of that although there is obvioulsly a bit at low revs. Is it faster than a 182 (including Trophy) in a straight line, YES by a fair bit, but so are loads of cars that are seriously crap!

On the track I have 'beaten' faster cars and been beaten by 'slower' cars. At the end of the day it's the driver who makes the difference. Give the two cars to a professional driver and they'll make a 182 sing and the Cupra cry. I seriously doubt there is anywhere a stock Cupra could touch a stock 182 if driven to their potential

marrow
21-12-09, 11:20 AM
I'm glad you 'stumbled' upon this thread... interesting read.

hoolio
21-12-09, 01:14 PM
Saw this subject had popped up again and thought Aw gawd here we go again but that is a very fair even handed comparison, nice one.

StevieH
21-12-09, 01:37 PM
Interesting read mate and some thing I can relate to coming from a revo'd Ibiza Tdi 130, running eibach suspension 17" wheels and S3 brakes.

However I'm going to have to disagree with you in a few areas, basically the engines are gutless below 2000rpm when the turbo kicks in with an almighty bang (enough to shear my fly wheel bolts and ruin my clutch) then after 4000rpm there pretty lethargic to the point where I found shifting at 4k the optimum point for quick progress.

Also wet weather handling is definatley atrocious, no matter how smooth a line you take or how gently you feed the power in it really is understeer central, I can't believe you've openly admitted it has a flawed chassis with torque steer and understeer yet insist wet weather performance is down to shit tyres and poor driving? Last time I checked wet weather seemed to exagerate any flaws not make them disapear.

Don't get me wrong mate I loved mine, and if they ever designed one that handled as good as a trophy I'd probably buy it.

Steve