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View Full Version : Hello from a 182 wanting Trophy suspension owner



r-jay
23-08-05, 02:52 PM
Unfortunatley I brought my 182 a little to early back in March so wont be getting a Trophy. Really hoping the Sachs suspension kit does get released that is being talked about over on Renault Sport forum, if so hopefully I will get it for my Cup Packed Black Gold car.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/r-jay-clio/Sunset/sunset.jpg

mr StinKa gob
23-08-05, 02:53 PM
The dampers are £350 each + VAT according to my telephone converstion with Renault.

r-jay
23-08-05, 02:59 PM
That for the front?, any idea on the rears?

Nik
23-08-05, 03:02 PM
Welcome to the forum mate, nice pic of your car.

I imagine the Trophy suspension will be fairly expensive, but the buying power of Renault might mean its not too bad. I expect they could sell quite a few conversions if the price is reasonable.

mr StinKa gob
23-08-05, 03:04 PM
They told me the dampers are all £350 each

r-jay
23-08-05, 03:19 PM
Cheers for the welcome Nik.

I guess its not going to be cheap, but am planning to keep the car for a while, and want a decent ride so the set up sounds ideal for me. As long as the kit is not to much over £1000, It will be temptimg.

I would lose lots more trading mine in (only has 1300 miles)

mr StinKa gob
23-08-05, 03:37 PM
I know no one will listen to me but here goes anyway.

I dont think the handling characteristics of the Trophy come from the fact that the dampers are Sach dampers. It comes from the stiffer damper setting, the wheels and the other minor suspension changes.

Let me explain. Resevoir dampers are designed for competition cars where the dampers take a real pounding, such as gravel stage rally cars. In a normal damper the movement of the piston within the damper disipates the energy of the spring and converts the movement energy to heat energy. As the damper works harder for longer this heat builds up and eventually the oil reaches a temp beyond which it can not effectively work and you get damper fade (similar to the brakes fluid heating up to give brake fade). Resevoir dampers were designed to prevent this over heating, by allowing the damper to store more oil (in a separate resevoir) and in doing so provide better thermal buffering capacity and prolong the time until damper fade occurs (the more oil there is to heat up the longer it is before that oil reaches a hot temp, much as half a kettle boils quicker than a full kettle).

Now the whole purpose of the resevoir damper is to improve the efficiency of the damper over a period of time such that the point that fade occurs is prolonged or removed entirely. A resevoir damper provides no real benefit to a car other than this (it can also allow a thicker damper and therefore stiffer damper) but it is still a normal damper but with more oil in it.

I know i will get flamed by the Trophy owners for this, but the resevoir damper on a light road / occassional track car is COMPLETE OVERKILL. I have never induced damper fade in my Williams, and i dont suspose any other clio owners have either. Therfore the whole point of the resevoir damper on a Clio is a complete white elephant. In any case, your tyres will be overheating / worn out and your brakes faded long before you reach a point hat damper fade would set in even on a prolonged hard track session.

If you selected a 'normal damper' with the same setting of stiffness as the Sach damper, and changed the rest of the car to the trophy settings, my opinion is that the car would handle just as well as if it had resevoir dampers. You would in effect have the same car at a much cheaper price. The ONLY disadvantage i could see is that IF you decided to do a gravel rally stage you MAY induce damper fade. (not very likely that this will happen is it?)

I really cannot see a reason to fit a resevoir damper to a light fwd car. Sports bikes and rally cars i can understand, but on a clio they are total overkill.

Nik
23-08-05, 03:56 PM
I'm no suspension expert so I wont try to argue against what you've said, but I think you hit the nail on the head when you said:


it can also allow a thicker damper and therefore stiffer damper

Renault claim the following as benefits:
It liberates enough space to package a thicker, and therefore stiffer damper rod, thus increasing camber compliance [/*:m:kn1c2urn]
The increased oil volume brings better thermal stability, to enable the damper to maintain optimal performance at all times [/*:m:kn1c2urn]
The space liberated allows a better quality for the hydraulic components to enable the damper valving to work more effectively [/*:m:kn1c2urn]Another unusual feature of the damper is that a hydraulic bump stop replaces the usual physical elastometric one. This gives a much more progressive stiffness rate once the bump stop starts to work and thus allows a lower ride height without compromising bump travel.


Wethere it's overkill or not, it certainly does the job. \:D/

mr StinKa gob
23-08-05, 04:09 PM
A number of interesting points there Nik.

Stiffer dampers are available from all manufactuers. Some can be custom made. You dont have to utilise a resevoir damper to achieve this.

Renault claim the following as benefits:

It liberates enough space to package a thicker, and therefore stiffer damper rod, thus increasing camber compliance (like i said stiffer dampers and adjustable ones are already available, it would be easy to copy the damper stiffness to any other damper)

The increased oil volume brings better thermal stability, to enable the damper to maintain optimal performance at all times (this is the point that i made, and is the real reason to fit a resevoir damper IMO, but not needed on a raod / track car)

The space liberated allows a better quality for the hydraulic components to enable the damper valving to work more effectively (would this be noticable? Honda S2000 use resevoir dampers on the rear suspension, and Honda has a trick valve i theirs too)


Overall im not saying the Trophy isnt a good car. What im saying is that the resevoir dampers are a GIMMICK, that need not have been used. Normal dampers would have given the same effect. Just as the 182 allegedly came with 'special' Exalto tyres, which turned out to be normal Exalto tyres that anyone could buy from Kwik Fit.

hyb
23-08-05, 07:43 PM
You might be right with saying its complete overkill, but the people that have come from a 182 to a trophy, or test drove the 2 say they notice a complete difference in how it feels in general driving, in a good way.. If between the two you prefer the trophys feel on the road then thats down to the dampers as well surely. You don't have to go road rallying in the trophy to get the goodness from the dampers, it feels better in general driving too.

mr StinKa gob
23-08-05, 07:53 PM
You might be right with saying its complete overkill, but the people that have come from a 182 to a trophy, or test drove the 2 say they notice a complete difference in how it feels in general driving, in a good way.. If between the two you prefer the trophys feel on the road then thats down to the dampers as well surely. You don't have to go road rallying in the trophy to get the goodness from the dampers, it feels better in general driving too.


But the Williams feels better than the Valver, but it doesnt have resevoir dampers, its just a better set up car.

I would suggest that the Trophy, if it is indeed better than the 182, is better on account of set-up, not its resevoir dampers.

hyb
23-08-05, 08:03 PM
But the main part of the setup is the dampers, thats the only 'real' change from the 182.
Theres not a whole lot of new parts on the trophy really. Dampers and wheels being the only mechanical parts. Recaro's spoiler being the cosmetic.

hyb
23-08-05, 08:09 PM
But on topic... unless you live at trackdays, i wouldnt bother changing :)

Wurlie
24-08-05, 10:40 AM
Hi all!

Just to introduce myself, have been a lurker on the cliosport forum since 2003, owned Mk1 172 until I changed to 182 two months ago.

Similar to r-jay, I bought my 182 with cup options a bit early. On top of that, I live in Croatia so it would be extremely difficult for me to source one of the reported 50 Swiss Trophies.

Two days ago I installed Trophy Speedlines, purchased at my friendly Renault dealer. I measured the weight of the wheels without tyres on, Trophy wheels being 9.9kg, std. Cup wheels 11.9kg.

I found the the influence of 2kg of unsprung mass to be hardly believable, especially on short, sharp bumps.

It would be interesting to see what the specs of the Sachs dampers are, and to try and source some aftermarket replacement with the same characteristics, combine that with the Trophy wheels and compare with the vanilla Trophy setup.

In short, 2kg less makes a lot of difference!

Rgds,
wurlie

Nik
24-08-05, 11:21 AM
Welcome to the forum Wurlie, thanks for signing up.

It's good to hear from people outside of the UK. Do you see many other people with the Renaultsport models in Croatia?

Wurlie
24-08-05, 02:04 PM
Hi Nik, thanks for the welcome!
There are quite a few of Renaultsport owners in Croatia. We got the Mk1 172 at the same time as the rest of Europe, at the time I knew all the examples that entered the country.
With the Mk2 more of them were bought, as people perceived them as well equipped Clios, similar to the Initiale models. Now with Megane 225 and Clio 182 one tends to see even more of them on the road.
There is also a lively message board, and a Renault club just recently established. I tend to post the useful info I gather from cliosport there.
I know most of you guys from lurking on the cliosport message board for the best part of the last 5 years, as I lived in Cambridge until 2001. Only registered in 2003.
Great to see a Trophy board go live, as I am looking forward to more technical, and may I say serious, level of discussion.
Cheers,
wurlie

r-jay
24-08-05, 03:46 PM
Intrested to read the difference in un sprung weight has made then? Have read lots of times in the past how important it is to reduce it in the past. Has now got me thinking the full benifits of trophy suspension will only come in conjunction with the wheels?

How costly did the wheels work out out?

Wurlie
25-08-05, 08:25 AM
Hi r-jay!
The wheels worked out to about 400GBP in croatian currency, VAT included.

After seeing the difference in suspension control with the lighter wheels, I must say that I am starting to believe all those claims about the importance of unsprung weight.

I would like to see the effect of the dampers alone, but I guess that it will be difficult to arrange a swap to std. cup wheels on a Trophy car.

cheers,

w

r-jay
26-08-05, 09:04 AM
The wheels worked out better than I expected them to cost wise.

My plan is to do the suspension first if the kit becomes available as I like the look off the car, and take it from there.

mr StinKa gob
26-08-05, 09:43 AM
Is it possible to do the suspension in stages?

Maybe something like this:

Wheels
Hubs and others
Shocks

If you could it would give you a good understanding of what effects the handling and how.

I rebuilt the suspension on my Williams in stages and it helped me learn what is the most important parts for the set up.


Just a thought :P

Wurlie
26-08-05, 10:27 AM
I agree completely with KingStromba on this. I don't think that there are many people who really understand effects of different suspension parts on the overall feel. I for sure do not, that's why I was so surprised by the effects lighter wheels had on my cupped 182.

Reading elsewhere on this site, following logical arguments, it seems that the reservoirs on the Sachs dampers are not themselves the greatest contributor to the different feel of the Trophy.

Hubs are the same, afaik, if not please correct me!

What we need is a spec sheet for the Sachs dampers to see if there are any from Koni, KYB etc. to match.

I would also jump at the chance to upgrade the suspension on my 182 to Trophy spec!

Cheers,

w

samuel
13-09-05, 08:38 PM
Hi All,

just to make you sure: also in Hungary there are some Clio RS owners :D

And I'm also looking forward to hearing about the competent dampers instead of those of the Trophy...

What about the springs?? Same as Cup's?

Bye

samuel
13-09-05, 09:09 PM
The only data I know about the Trophy dampers (to find a cheaper one with similar characteristics) that the rod is stiffer: 25mm instead of the normal RS's 20mm.

sm_wrc
15-09-05, 11:22 AM
I'm in the same boat as R-jay. The cost of trading in my full-fat one against the Trophy was too big a hit. So, I am waiting to see if Reno do release it as a kit. Mega expensive, especially if they fit it.

So having spoke to Mark Fish about it, I think I might go down the coilovers route. Should give me lots of flexability, and adjustment, to dial in for trackdays.

:D

amm
19-09-05, 12:58 AM
Unfortunatley I brought my 182 a little to early back in March so wont be getting a Trophy. Really hoping the Sachs suspension kit does get released that is being talked about over on Renault Sport forum, if so hopefully I will get it for my Cup Packed Black Gold car.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/r-jay-clio/Sunset/sunset.jpg renault say the damper's are 10 times more exspencive than the 182 ones

iain_c
19-09-05, 01:55 PM
stick on a set of coilovers to your 182....a 172/182 with coilovers handles just as well at a trophy....imo

Day
19-09-05, 04:15 PM
only if set up correctly!

Got to get the corner weights done properly... a set of bathroom scales will not surfice!

SteveC
19-09-05, 04:50 PM
TBH if i was in this situation I would go coilovers, benefits are the full adjustabilty for track use and for show use you can drop the car right to the floor.

Have a word with LEDA there based over in Braintree Essex and there coilovers are spot on, you can go for a basic set up right up to a full blown race set up. Well worth saving you hard earned pennies.

Nik
20-09-05, 12:45 AM
Very true really. The majority of people would benefit more from a few hundred quid's worth of track tuition than from fitting fancy suspension to their car or other performance mods.

I've done quite a few trackdays now, but I know if I want to get anywhere near driving the Trophy to its full potential I could do with getting some more tuition.

mr StinKa gob
20-09-05, 08:59 PM
I agree, 90% of drivers on UK roads will run out of talent long before their cars run out of ability.

Ive yet to see anyone use coilover properly, except for race teams and race drivers.

People assume lower cars are faster, just as they assume wider tyres grip better and allow faster lap times. 99.9999% of people who drive on the roads arnt race engineers although alot like to think they are. Very few people properly understand suspension dynamics, let alone have a grasp large enough to improve a road car.

I doubt there is anyone on Cliosport / here who can use a 172 to its full potential, or any other reno rs car. Therefore coilovers are a complete waste of money, unless needed for asthetic purposes.

iain_c
23-09-05, 12:29 PM
well imo...coilovers can give your a better feeling of control over your car thus letting you take corners faster.
A coilovered cup is far more convincing in the corners than a stock car...
They also look the nuts lowered. :lol:

matt the cat
26-09-05, 09:02 PM
without getting into dynamics, i feel a real world comment is appropriate here, and feel qualified in doing so after owning 2 mk1 172's and a mk2..... the trophy feels amazingly more secure on the road, it seems to inspire me with more confidence. When pressing on its feels more 'planted' at speed.

and another thing; the red paint is the bollox

Keith Waters
07-01-06, 01:03 PM
It liberates enough space to package a thicker, and therefore stiffer damper rod, thus increasing camber compliance (like i said stiffer dampers and adjustable ones are already available, it would be easy to copy the damper stiffness to any other damper)


I think there are two types of stiffness here that are being confused.

The first type of stiffness is the reactive stiffness of the damper, which is essentially the resistive force generated for a given displacement rate. This is the stiffness most people are referring to when they mention “damper stiffness” and many dampers allow it to be adjusted.

The other type of stiffness is the structural stiffness of the damper, which essentially determines the kinematic accuracy of the damper. This structural stiffness is particularly important when the damper is used as a McPherson strut because the camber compliance relies on it.

Keith